Okay, seriously...comparing training a dog and raising a child? Do you have a child? No...not the same. I grew up in a family that had spankings and my sisters, brother and I turned out fine. Physical violence has been confused with disciplining (such as spanking) a child for the longest time. I have seen parents raise their children with no spankings and I have seen children raised with spankings and I have to say, I prefer the child with spankings...if you have never been spanked, then it might be easy for you to confuse a "Spanking" with "beating" cause all you ever knew of spanking are the stories that people lead you to believe and think that spanking a child must mean abuse or beating them to make them listen. I'll do everything I can not to spank my child but if they are constantly doing something that they should not be doing and verbal warnings don't' get through, then yes, a spanking is in order.

So you are comparing the intelligence level of your child to that of your dog? What high expectations you have....NOT.

I have never been able to understand the people who think they can reason with a 2o r 3 yr old child. The parent may feel better as they stand there and talk to the child, explaining why they shouldnt do something because its naughty or harmful. For the most part after the first few words, that child's mind is in a entirely different direction, like...what's for snack" and all they are hearing from the parent is "blah blah blah blah" sorta like Charlie Brown's teacher. Sometimes actions do speak louder than words. Spanking your child is not "giving them a beating". Nor is slapping your new puppy on the behind or the nose with a newspaper.

I am assuming my Child is smarter then the dog, but actually I have a Belgian shepard which is about as smart as your average 2.5 year old so it's a fair comparison. Although when she was 1 the dog was quite a bit smarter then her.

I never slapped my new puppy on the nose with a news paper, no reason. Not if you know how to train a dog. Yup kidds are the same, they are Just as smart as a Puppy, and once they get to 2.5 they start being even smarter then a puppy.

No Obviously talking in a subdued voice and yammering on isn't going to convey the correct message. However dealing with children and animals with a strong since of authority, calm control, and clearly asserting yourself you shouldn't ever have to resort to physical violence.

like this, "Sam... Put that down." "look at me" "Put it down"

Good girl!

there ya go, works on kids works on dogs. You just got to respect your child as much as you do your pet.

I'm with "yourkiddingright23"...if a dog can be trained without hitting, then certainly a child, who is capable of much more complex thought and reasoning, can be. I was spanked as a child...my father never did it in anger, and it was always done appropriately and rarely, just as the spanking advocates say. But it was simply not necessary for me, a shy child who was very eager to please...it was like putting out a candle with a firehose. And I honestly feel that the fear and humiliation imposed by him permanently damaged our relationship. Perhaps some childrens' temperaments are more cut out for spanking, but I think that needs to be assessed by the parent on a child-by-child and family-by-family basis.

Thanks Steph.

I also think the problem comes in when we tell children not to handle situations with violence, and yet if you hit your kids, you are contradicting exactly what you said.

Your behavior says it's ok to be violent. You have to back up your words with your deeds.

I know Spankings aren’t violent. Well are you or are you not hitting the child?

Are you hurting the child? And if you are not hurting the child why are you going through the motions.

So yes, hitting hard enough to cause pain… That sounds like violence to me.

How can you possibly expect for your 5 year old to handle his friends without violence when you can’t even handle him without violence?

Spanking doesn't always work either.

I find those that never had to swat their child either only have the 1 kid and that child, and like most dogs, have a great desire to please their parents. But rarely do I hear about how lucky that parent feels for having a child that fit their mindset as if the childs personality or emotional intelligence had anything to do with it.

OK... so comparing the raising of a child to a dog... I have both.. and more than 1 with each.

Dogs... they are of a pack mentality. Their insticts are based on pack survivial and their place in that pack. You have some dogs that are dominate, some that are submissive, some breeds have a great desire to please their masters (pack leaders) and some that are less so. Once a dog LEARNS it's place in the pack... they are happy to stay there and loyalty keeps them there. They place is to be by our side, earning praises and love and giving unconditional love back. They are not influenced by other packs of dogs.. because they are meant to die by our side.

Child... They are individuals. Their instincts is to learn and grow. To become a responsible independent adult. The place in the family changes as they grow. You have some that have a stubborn independent streak and some that want to be loved so much that they look to their parents for approval. At some point they stop looking to us and start looking to their peers and that can start at a young age. When the influences are bad, you have a child that will try to look good by acting out.

Just like some dogs, some children mature mentally/ emotionally faster than others. That can also influence their behavior at the age of 2.5. Esp when there is only the 1 child-

That said, I've only had to spank my son 3 times in his life... Once for breaking a major safety violation for the 2nd time but twice due to a bad influence of a neighbor kid. Groundings didn't work because the kid would sneak over and talk through the window, stirring trouble. The kid's father was in jail and he had no respect for his own mother (that never spanked him). He would try to rile my son up. Talking didn't override the anger this kid stirred up... after a good open handed swat on his behind... my son learned that every time he listened to this kid... he was going to have a smart bottom... IT WORKED... my son, 16, today doesn't allow others to influence him into bad behavior... when his teacher asked him about it, she said his response was that he learned not to listen to suggestions that would get him into trouble, to first think of the consequences and do what he knows is right.

My daughter works best with firm chastisement of her behavior followed later by reasoning and her self-esteem is healthy today. Time outs didn't work, lectures didn't work, spankings didn't work - spanked her a couple of times and noticed it didn't work so I knew I had to look for another way... took me a while to figure her out.

oh and BTW... I was beaten as a child by my father.... leather belt, anywhere between 5-15 lashes, closed fist to the face, welts on my back and legs that bled. He hit out of anger, he beat to ensure blind obedience. For his own power trip. I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE..... A spanking should never leave bruises nor should it be done in anger or done to get non-thinking behavior. The child should think about the consequences of his action and know that rules are in place out of love and for the child's good. Spankings work best as a last resort.. to ensure the message is a serious one.

When you use spanking as a last resort then you are not teaching that child violence... first resort are firm explanations of the rules, time-outs, groundings... if reasoning doesn't stop it.. then it's time to imploy something else. So the child does learn to first resort to reasoning.

I'm going to add something here, sorry for being long-winded...

It's not just about if spanking a child is wrong. I've seen a parent never raise their hand to hit a child but what came out of their mouth was more damaging than a red bottom. Verbal abuse can be just as horrible as a beating.

... So because you can't handle more then one child... but still had 3 then it's ok for you to use a more primitive and convinient method to raise them.

OK... Sounds like a cheep excuse mabye you shouldn't have had more children then you can handle.

I have 2 kids ( and a dog ! ) the first child i spanked only 2 times ever in her life, if you can call it spanking, 1 for touching the outlet, 1 for running in the street and she never did either again, which is a good thing, i could talk to her and make her understand about everthing, still can. the second one.... nothing works talking spanking, yelling, timeouts, he will continue to do the same thing over and over and over and over again until something in there clicks that maybe he shouldnt do it any more... the dog just does whatever it wants no matter what. So my moral is if the kid isn't being abused and there is a difference everyone should just but out an let the parent be a parent.. i mean we are fine to complain about whats right and wrong here but kids being hit in a store or kidnapped screaming n the street and we do nothing....

the second one.... nothing works talking spanking, yelling, timeouts, he will continue to do the same thing over and over and over and over again until something in there clicks that maybe he shouldnt do it any more... the dog just does whatever it wants no matter what.

Consistancy.

Figure out how you will punish him.

Yelling doesn’t work, A child should never get the feeling that you have lost control.

I like timeout. But My timeout is different from your typical time out.

You Put them in the chair, You tell them why they are bad.

THEN you sit and watch them about 10 feet away.

Do not talk to them

Do not respond to their acting out

Quietly sit and watch.

If they get up, Stand up and put them back

If they stand up and talk, Stand up, Put them back

IF they stand up and say, “I’m sorry.” Say 2 more minutes and put them back

IF they throw the chair take the chair away and put them back in the corner.

Once he starts to Believe that you Will NOT yield when it comes to this punishment you can stop watching him.

THEN be Consistent. Set a rule and ALWAYS enforce it. And enforce it every time with the exact same punishment.

That should help.

oh as for the dog, he doesn't respect you either.

Start Submitting him... Roll him onto his Back and hold him in the submitted possition untill he relaxes, continue to do it regularly without being upset untill he starts to understand you are in charge.

Same with the boy, just a slightly different execution.

I have no children of my own. But I babysit for my neighbor's kids and let me just say that if they do something that could harm themselves then a swat on the bottom is appropriate. You do not have to over do just 1 swat or 2 depending on age and they will know you mean business. And spanking is not about inflicting pain. If it is then it is being done wrong is abuse and the parents should lose their children. And to those whose parents abuse them I can only say I am sorry and I wish you were mine or that you had had better parents

Susie,

I certainly hope the family is aware of your actions.

Good, but not everybody is the same. Just like everybody learns differently so different forms of discipline work with different children. 1 or 2 swats is not beating . yourkiddingright. The parents are the ones who told me the occassions it is ok to swat their children for and how to apply

To yourkiddingright23,

Spoken like someone who has never raised kids! Raising kids today is alot harder then it was when my parents raised my brother and me. Kids today have no respect for anything or anyone. I think spanking a child is okay when it is appropriate. I have raised 2 children myself(they are now 18 1/2) and they turned out fine. College students with a good head on their shoulders. People who have never had kids or raised should mine their own business. They have no idea what they are talking about.

And children and dogs are different. I can't believe you would acually compare the 2. Get a grip.

yourkiddingright23,

Who were you talking about having 3 kids?.

Excuses excuses. K in California

Kids are kids, it's no harder, your just not very good at it. Not if you have to resort to hitting them, if the only way you can control a child is through fear and spankings I don't think you’re a very good parent. The fact that they turned out "ok" has allot more to do with them then you.

MKC I was guessing that you had about three kids.

Excuses ladies. Stop Crying about how hard it is and be a Mom.

Jesus, and I'm a liberal!

Children and Dogs require quite a few of the same basic assurances. Of course the analogy only works if you have the slightest Clue as how to raise a dog, which of course you don't... So I digress.

As far as Children, I have one and a half. The half is my God Child.

And don’t pull the “it’s too hard because I’m a single mom line.” The mother of my God kid is a single mom and she has the dedication to train her child without having to resort to spanking.

Well obviously you didn't read my post.. you just ran on an assumption. What did you do.... I disagree and you made assumptions without reading through?

I have 2 kids... a boy and a girl that I can handle just fine... My kids are great kids. BOTH my kids teachers, adults they are around, and the ex-in laws (begrudgingly) admit I did a terrific job... not because I'm a superior mother... I refuse to pretend it's the easiest thing.... I have raised many animals, dogs, cats, horses, etc. I worked on a farm. I've trained many of them. I got a dose of humility with kids (and a horse).

I also said I spanked them only a few times in their whole entire life... they are now teens... respectful, good moral characters- the spanking my son got, simply redirected his thoughts of allowing this boy to rile him up- it worked.. never.. and I repeat.. NEVER had to spank him again. This is not an excuse, but an explanation of why I believe that spankings was beneficial. Excuses are ... "the kids make me do it", "I can't help it"... but saying I had to use it as a last resort, is explaining. Trust me.. most of us don't go away smiling and getting a high off of having to swat our kids bottoms... it hurt me deeply but it worked.

So do you ever credit your child for being such a soul that was easy to work with or do you simply think you and your methods alone are what worked? You're that good? Step down and try to see what others are saying... you're to far above everyone to really READ what they are trying to say.

I tried to read what you were saying but your writing skills are quite poor. Hey my spelling sucks so No judgment.

To yourkiddingright23,

You sound like a very self rightgeous person. I read what people are saying, and they are not saying they take pleasure in spanking their child. Sometimes a child needs a good smack on the bottom to get the point across. From what I am getting, you don't have children, and good for you that you have God in your life. I know alot of people who have God in their lives, and they spank their children. Ever hear of the quote in the Bible "Spare the rod, spoil the child."? You think we are whining because it is so hard! Why don't you take a walk in our shoes for a day or for a month, and see just how difficult it is!!! I personnaly think you should be the one to quit Bitching about us. Just because your god child doesn't get disciplined doesn't mean that works for every child. Some children need a good one or two smacks on the bottom to get the point across. I have two children who turned out fine. I am not saying I am perfect, but I do try to do my best. Before I would spank my children, I would explain to them why I was doing it. Of course they would be upset, no one likes getting a spank, but if they really have done something bad, that a simple time out won't do, then they would get a spank. I could probably count on both hands without using all of my fingers on how many times I spanked them. My husband died when my children were very young, and it was just me raising them. So before you get all judgemental on people, know their situation first before you belittle us. Looking after your god child here and there does not qualify you an opinion. As a parent, we do have to make difficult decisions and live with them. You, who does not have children, keep your opinion to yourself. I am tired of dealing with people LIKE YOU!!! You think you know all, but you don't.

So cudos to the many parents out there, from single to both parents for having the guts to discipline your children . Don't let people like yourkiddingright23 get to you. Because they have no clue as to what they are talking about.

What on earth are you talking about? God in my life?

Anyway, I have a child of my own too, My god child is a good example of a child with some truly difficult issues, she is a good girl but because her Dad abandoned her and her mom when she was very young she had lots of rage. So I helped raise her, then I had a child of my own.

Just because a child isn't spanked doesn't mean that it isn't disciplined, I believe in very strict discipline.

I'm just calling it as I see it. People make up excuses as to why it's ok for them to spank their kids, and it's just excuses. When you really look at it.

I was spanked boon and let me tell you once was all it took

I misbehaved and did other wrong things which earned me a spanking but they were my actions so I had to take consequences

Right, but what I'm saying is that if you find yourself having to spank often, it isn't working. And honestly, just about everybody who spanks that I know has to do it OFTEN.

How is it that you say be assertive, use your parental authority, never spank? What about for those kids who constantly threaten to call 911 or to tell their teacher some outrageous lie? Are parents supposed to stand there and go okay honey don't touch the stove because it is hot after being told 5, 10, 15 times?

Those kids who threaten to call 911 have parents who have lost control. If they had been parented consistantly from the beginning, they would know better.

As far as letting them touch the stove, let them learn thier own lesson if they don't believe you. It's not as if they will put thier hand on a hot stove and leave it there - and then they will know you weren't kidding. Sometimes kids need to figure stuff out on their own before they will admit that you know what you are talking about. I had several students who were constantly tipping back in their chairs despite my warnings that they would fall back and hurt themselves. Sure enough, one of them fell back and busted his head open - blood everywhere, trip to the ER, stitches, the works. Now, there is not a single kid in my class who tips in his chair. Not the ideal outcome, of course, but it proved to them that I know what I'm talking about.

hey I'm not saying spanking isn't effective, it's just out moded. It's how cave men raise children, but we have the full benifit of science, of Tons of phychology.

I used to be like you, untill I got my dog. Who loves his cat friends... I thought that violence was the only way to raise a child, even though my parents never had to spank me. But then I learned how to train something, I learned how to teach a dog without ever having to beat him.

It's a great and powerfull thing, I strongly recomend that you look into finding alternatives to this very primitive method of child rearing. Start with something simple like a new dog.

I never had to discipline my dog like that again. Twenty plus years later I have a new set of 2 dogs and 6 cats. Nothing more than an occasional growl or hiss from me is needed to keep harmony. As I said "JUDICIOUSLY when and only when needed" - something you might have (willingly?) missed. It's not outmoded - just should be a last resort. Some of the WORST, most violent, and uncultured raised offspring I have ever met are those of the "enlightened" psychologists.

My children are fine. They respect others and actually are trying to teach those who have no respect for others (undisciplined, raised per the psychologists "wisdom" by the way) to behave in a socially acceptable way.

PAX

.

no I noticed the when Needed.

My argument is simple.

I don't Need it with a dog... If I don’t' NEED to hit a dog, why would I NEED to hit my child?

And FYI My dog is a registered Search and Rescue dog. If you can't train a dog to be a productive member of society how can you possibly train a child?

Anyway with a dog it's all about Dominance, same with a kid. They need to know that you are in control. And the best way to show that you are the dominant controller to any animal doesn't have to involve violence, and actually works best when it doesn't. The best way to make a Intelligent dog turn on you is to hit it. Ask anyone. Repeat repeat repeat, you can’t let yourself get impatient or angry, you can't show any indication that their behavior has any power of changing yours. And you must be absolutely consistent, if they feel like you make up the rules as you do along they won’t respect you or the rules. (I’m talking about both dogs and children here.)

And when they get uppity you force them to submit. With a dog you roll them on their back and hold them until they relax.

With a child you look into their eyes and say, “I'm the parent.”

Then they throw a fit, they scream and cry and fight.

You watch and say, “I'm the parent.”

More screaming, “You are not in control and you do NOT intimidate me.”

And then they stop, or scream some more... and you sit and you watch and you take it. Soon they realize that nothing that they can do can shake your will… the sessions take less and less time and then the child respects you as the unshakable leader of the family. Your child isn't beaten into submission, but CHOOSES to behave.

How can you possibly assume your own child is less will full? Violence begets violence

Just how is that you know all these psychologists? That last statement feels unnecessary and probably not entirely true.

Shrinks are just like the rest of us and fall into three general categories: sane, iffy, and crazy. To try to paint a whole profession with such a broad brush really undercuts your somewhat reasonable argument.

I've been reading this vine and I'm still at a loss as to why there should even be a comparison between disciplining children vs. animals.

Was not the question "to spank or not to spank?" How relevant is animal training to child rearing?

Once you realize that dogs are as smart as 2 and a half year olds, it becomes pretty clear.

yourkiddingright23 comment 5.3:

I agree.

Case by case. I never needed but a single act, which we both understood. With subsequent critters, never more than a "growl or hiss".

I think we are actually on the same page. Violence is, to some extent, a loss of the desired humanity. It is something that should ONLY be a LAST resort. (caps for emphasis - not yelling). As you say, expression of dominance is the key. A measured response, starting with the "softest" reaction but willing to escalate. Violence, should be, the LAST resort. If it is the first resort of the parent, then the parent has issues which must be resolved. Protect the innocent/weaker.

We don't seem to disagree except to the point where the non-aggressive tactics fail. As an example, the new set of critters have been around for 7 years - without the need for any "spankings'. We agree (I think) - if there is no need for the physical, then there is no need for it. "We" are the adults and should act as such. It is just that in a LIMITED number of cases, there may be no choice. Beat? NO. Spank, OK. IF, your scenario fails completely, what would you do?

Oh, BTW, try your scenario in a grocery stop. You will (sadly) be arrested too.

haha, yes. That's why god invented cars. the thing is to address it that secound.

You know I let the cat hiss... it's his way of saying, OK big guy not playing anymore leave me be.

I havn't YET experianced any need to spank, Although ONCE My god child nearly killed her mom... (kind of a long story but in involved a horse) Anyway I turned her around and "missed" her behind. Never hit her just let her feel the wind from my hand passing her backside. I think of it as the equivilant as grabbing the scruff.

Emma-1453588
You will find that if one talks to one's dogs (and possibly cats) in full sentences that they actually can understand (eventually) around 300-500 human words. This is why it is possible (on a limited basis) to reason with them and explain what you want them to do. Forget complex discussion, just simple things like "go fetch the paper", "stop that", "Do you want some cookies". Dogs, understand emotion. They understand when you are angry. The live to serve the leader of the pack (hopefully you or you are in trouble). Love them (like children) and they will love you (like children). One should not treat either animal or child any less than one would treat the other or any one else. They deserve no less, they deserve love, understanding and charity as best as we can give them. They will (hopefully) respond in kind. There will be the ones who require greater disciplinary action than the majority. That is the truth of life. Something some will not admit. But how one would treat a dog/ child tells much about how one would treat others in their life. Be as kind as possible. Take no guff.

remembering-1535047

I did not intend to paint with abroad brush. Thank you for the sanity check (no pun intended just lacking better words). It is just a comment on those whom I have met/interacted with.

But I have yet to meet a psychologist who does not have a "greater than thou" mentality. I have met a few through my life - not as a patient, but through life's interactions.

yourkiddingright23 5.8

You aimed, you swung, you missed.

HHHHMMMM

"If I don’t' NEED to hit a dog, why would I NEED to hit my child?"

" Anyway I turned her around and "missed" her behind. Never hit her just let her feel the wind from my hand passing her backside. I think of it as the equivilant as grabbing the scruff."

Your argument just disintegrated. It seems you feel there is a point where "physical violence" is the answer.

You "missed", but you took the swat!

I was spanked as a child time out grounding standing in the corner never did anything for me. But when I got my butt swatted I knew my parents meant business. I heard a little girl call her mom a female dog, do you honestly think time out or grounding or taking her Ipod away for a week would make her stop belittling her mom I don't think so

as a black belt in martial arts I can can assure you that I missed on purpose.

The act was done to shock her out of her fit, not to harm her.

Rockwater.

my argument is still valid. Yes I did that, yes I felt I had to. Yes it worked.

BUT at the time, I didn't know what else to do. That was 4 years ago when Sara what 4, since then I have learned alot. While I am VERY glad I didnt' actually hurt her, and I am Very glad that she became quite and stopped frightening the horse her mother was on...

I know in my heart that I had lost control of the situation. And I still fill that anytime a parent raises a hand to a child "out of last resort" it is actually because they simply lost control, of themselves, of the child, and of the situation.

yourkiddingright23-

I am a mom of 5 children. 2 step, 1 special needs, and 2 biological, their ages range from 24 down to 3 and one grandchild that is 4. Dealing with one child is the easiest part of being a parent, have the time to spend working on problem areas but what you lack in knowledge is when your child gets older the writing is already on the wall that you are going to have your hands full. It is proven that homes with only one child tends to have a child that is spoiled and the child also has issues fitting in with children there own age. But there is always that exception.

What I have found out about raising children over the past 24 years is that you need to do what is best for that child. It doesn't matter if it is a time out or a swat on the butt to get them to mind, if it is done out of love the child will understand that you are not being mean or abusive. It is people like you that are closed minded that cause problems for other parents in this society. You are very opinionated but if you were put in other people's shoes I am sure you would have a new outlook on different situations. To me you sound like you are blowing hot air and trying to convince people that raising children is as easy as raising an animal. They are two total different thing and neither are that simple to handle, they both have minds of their own. Each are unique and needs to be dealt with differently. Some children need a firm stance other just need a timeout.

But I hope that you get this out of what I am trying to explain to you don't judge other's on there discipline practices. Our society is a melting pot of different cultures and other people might not find your practices acceptable either. So please have a kinder heart to others and not be so opinionated.

Reading this thread is extremely entertaining, and also quite informative. But all that I'm really learning is that most people already KNOW what they know and have little desire to learn... sort of like some of the children they're raising?

I also equate some aspects of raising children with dog training, but I realize that the analogy breaks down at some point due to the difference between raising a PET who will live his/her entire life as a part of my closed family (pack) and raising a child to leave my home and join society in a situation far beyond my control or supervision. The same BASIC rule applies, that you must decide on what is acceptable behavior and draw a line there. ANY deviation beyond that line must ALWAYS draw punishment, whether the punishment is verbal, physical or mental/emotional.

However, when raising a child, you have to realize that by the age of five, they are expanding their range of association with other people - ie, they'll be going to school and or playing with friends that you are totally unable to control or screen. At that point, if you haven't laid down a specific set of rules and set a very specific set of punishments for violation of those rules, there WILL be hell to pay!

Yourekidding is totally ignoring the fact that the similarities between dogs and children are only valid up to a point. She is also ignoring the differences in temperament between dog breeds, place in litter, and especially in the gender of the animal. What works perfectly with a female retriever, for instance, will leave you bloody with a male chihuahua or doberman once their hormones begin to stir! I'm assuming that your child is just that - a child. I would also be willing to guess that the particular dog you are referencing here is a female and most likely one of the retriever breeds. As somebody who has trained not one or two but dozens of dogs from over a dozen different breeds and crossbreeds, as well as having raised two sons who are both in their thirties, I think I have a bit more experience here than you. As someone who has also studied psychology as a layman for a hobby, I'll also debate you on those terms if you wish.

But the fact of the matter is that my oldest son was diagnosed at the age of three with not hyperactivity (a behavioral problem) but with hyperkineticism - an actual physical syndrome in which any sugars or carbohydrates he ingested would quickly turn into excess energy. The doctors at the clinic I took him to were amazed at the way I got him to behave by consistency and continually requiring HIM to take responsibility for his own behaviors. Now, he'd be living on Ritalin his entire life... then, he was a very polite and loving child whose biggest fault today is that he feels other people's or animals' pain more than his own. And yes, one of the many punishments I used was spanking for certain types of misbehavior.

My younger child was a totally different matter. Where the older was a chihuahua, he was more of a golden retriever... He was spanked far less often and responded well to that and praise. However, he also rebelled at times and had to be taught the rules. My personal belief (note that I do admit it is a BELIEF, not a FACT or RULE) is that if you can train a child to respect you and your rules before they reach the age at which they become socially active, you'll have far less trouble getting them to grow into healthy, respectful adults.

I'm getting too long here, so I'll quit with one final conclusion: Anybody who truly believes that their way is always right in all situations and for all people is too rude for me to trouble myself reading, let alone respond to.

Yours,

UncommonCourtesy

shocked...

You have 5 kidds and 1 is special needs?

Why did you decide it was a good idea to take all of those children into your care when you admit that you can't handle that challenge without violence?

Bravo(a).

You said what I was trying to explain.

Good question, but then one must ask "does one (society) do nothing to instill in our young the temperance of of civility?" DO we forgo teaching righteous action and humanity? Yes there are degrees of retribution which must be carefully watched and restrained. To eliminate al levels of retribution is "silly". Is it not equally safe to say that the murderer is no less guilty than the rest for having or not having been spanked in an earlier part of life? Throughout our society there have always been levels of punishment meted out as a result of the actions of the individual. How does this differ from the penalties exacted for the "crimes of the child or those of the adolescent or adult? There must be levels of retribution exacted. This is not to say that an unwarranted is OK. It Is a difficult question, and one which must be examined as to the level of penalty exacted upon a minor child, - one who cannot protect him/herself. Protect the innocent. Undo physical retribution is unacceptable. But to deny the JUDICIOUS application of punishment is wrong.

My father spanked me until I was about 16, the belt, the open hand, the shoe, everything was game, and as a result, I grew to fear him, to the point that whenever he was around I wouldn't talk and would only look at the floor. I still feel uneasy talking whenever he is around. He's a frail old man but he has instilled such fear in me! I also grew to resent him, we're not close and had he tried alternative methods of discipline, maybe we would have had a great relationship, instead of an emotionally distant one like the one we do now.

Thanks!

Of course some children are more difficult than others. My godchild for instance is a very, very, will full strong minded little girl. She was full of a practically unholy rage! Her mom used to call me terrified, I can’t make her stop throwing a fit!

My answer, “Don’t”

Sara (the child) was angry. Her father abandoned her, she knew that her Mom was afraid. She had a right to be angry. And as a three year old the only way she knew to express this anger was to throw a fit. So her Mom stayed with her, put a bunch of pillows in the room and let Sara go nuts. Eventually Sara would calm down curl up into her Mom’s arms and start talking about what made her feel that way. OF course as a three year old it wasn’t exactly “mom I’m mad because X,Y, Z” it was more “I’m scared, I miss daddy.” Sara could rage for hours at a time, but once we started letting her get it out in a safe environment the fits got shorter and less dramatic. Sara became more able to express what she was feeling, and slowly as she aged she got better at controlling her outbursts.

Recently at 6 she started getting fussy at the barn.

“Sara! Look at me.”

Fuss fuss fuss

“Look at me”

She looks

“This is not how we behave. Stop it.”

She looks away

“No Look at me. What’s going on with you?”

“I’m Cold and I’m Tired and I want a NAP!”

LOL

So I laid her down in the car and she took a nap.

At 8

“I can’t drink that because It has too much sugar and I can’t behave when I am Hyper.”

Spanking would have never worked on Sara. Which is what first got myself and her mom started on finding new ideas.

When Sara was 4 I picked up my Belgian Sheppard Puppy and started training him for Search and Rescue. I realized then that so many of the same principles that I applied to the dog could also be applied to children. Sara Included.

The biggest mistake people make with dog training? They don’t treat their dog like a dog.

The biggest mistake in people training? They expect their person to act like someone they aren’t.

Sara was angry, she had a right to be angry, and she deserved to express it. Sometimes as a parent we have to simply let them get out the ugly in a healthy way, forcing her to bury it or somehow not express it at that age would have been impossible, and if not impossible devastating for her.

My own daughter who is now close to 4 won’t have her security taken from her like Sara did. (thank goodness) and because of that she is much easier to train. Like a puppy she understands three things.

1. Mom and Dad can handle it
2. Rules are set in stone
3. Mom and Dad keep me safe

Just like a puppy that is all she needs to know. So long as she believes those three things then she never has to be afraid, or angry.

We hear a lot about children testing their boundaries. What is that really? It’s testing these three conditions, Can mom and dad really handle it? Are the rules REALLY set in stone. And yes she tests those boundaries… she is after all a child.

It isn't about fear it's about respect. I listen to and respect my mother because I am a child, she is in control and she defines the boundries of my very existance with un yeilding consistancy. I respect my parents as a unit because they have never lied to me (let me break the rules) and they are always on the same page.

Here is my favorite quote for dog rearing... please feel free to use it for child rearing too.

next time you realize your dog pooped on the floor take a rolled up newspaper and smack yourself in the face with it while saying, "I should have been watching the puppy."

absolutely right I totally agree there is no one way for every child

Susie, you said it right there "There is no one way for every child." Some on here are trying to imply that one style of discipline works for all. It doesn't. I have 3 children. One needs occasional spanking right now. He throws violent fits, throws things in reach and hits others. After just trying to ride it out and put him in time out, we found it didn't work. I gave him 2 taps on the butt and he stopped throwing and hitting right then and there. Now he doesn't throw or hit. He screams, but that only requires putting in him bed or in a corner until he's done. The older brother no longer needs any spanking. Taking away privelages or putting him in the corner for a couple minutes works. The youngest doesn't require any spankings and she barely misbehaves at all. Each child is different and you can't just "coookie cutter" discipline for all. Anyone who trys to say that is absolutely wrong.

I will also say my experience leads me to think that a child who "needs a spanking" is responding to some turmoil. We want to dicipline them, but have you ever taken the time to just stop and hold them, play with them, nurture them. Reflect on what is happening in their lives/ their world. Most likely there is somthing awry and the harmony needs to be found and things will be back to normal.

Absolutly!

Bad Behavior doesn't just "happen" Either they are testing Boundries, or they are trying to express something that is difficult.

The only time I hit my dogs is when they run out in the street. Or when I tell them to stay in the yard so they don't get hit and they disobey. one of them almost got hit . You take each situation into determining the discipline

Susie,

you should read some books on dog raising. If your dog might run out into the street he has no buisness off of a leash.

NOW you say you hit your dog when this happens.

THIS is why that is a bad thing... So you chase your dog down and then you hit them.

Well now they are running from you because they know your angry... and your both running through traffic? Bad BAD situation

Or you call them to you and then you hit them.

NEVER EVER EVER hit your dog after a successfull come.

This is the solution, Next time your dog runs out into the street you should hit yourself for being a horrible owner.

This is what you do. FIRST train your dog so that they ALWAYS come. Train them consistantly and regularly so that they know Stay, Sit, Lay down, and Sit stay. If your dog can not perform these commands every time, your dog should be on a leash... no if ands or butts.

Every time your Child or your pet misbehaves you should FIRST ask, "What did I do wrong?"

You are the parent, YOU are supposed to be in control of the situation. Why did you loose control? Why didn't the dog respect your comand? Why didn't the child? Did you set up the dog or child to fail? Say giving the child a tall glass of soda and then wondering why she missbehaves? Not feeding the dog and wondering why it digs through the trash?

90% of the time if you have a behavior problem in your home it is YOUR fault.

It's not a matter of which form of discipline to use, it's a matter of teaching them in the first place. At 2 or 3 years of age that is when you start teaching not hitting. They can be taught not to touch a hot stove or put their finger in an electric socket but how do they understand "why did Mommy hit me?" Do you really think that a two year old can connect a hot stove with a spanking? Children are all basically the same. They want to feel secure and loved. Parents that spank seem to want to play the role of supreme leader. The "you will do as your told" rule. I truly believe that raising children is a gift because the rewards you get back are amazing.

If she is "Driving you crazy" I'm willing to bet that she is looking for some attention. Some kids just take a lot more effort then others. The solution for your daughter isn't simple, it involves time... Lots of time.

Next time she starts acting up, take her into a quiet room, don't let her leave and just watch her. Let her do what ever it is that she wants to do... try to figure out what is going on in that little head. Show her that you can handle even her worst behavior without even getting mildly unraveled.

See when she sees that she can "drive you crazy" she looses faith in your ability to take care of her...

Ya She looses respect for you.

Remain CALM, Observe. Try to figure out what it is that she is trying to express and then respond appropriatly.

As with any biblical passage, "spare the rod, spoil the child" can be interpreted in many ways. My priest explained that the reference was to a divining rod (the Y shaped stick that was once believed to lead you to water). Basically he explained that if you spare your child guidance, you will spoil him.

Hey they asked.

How can you raise a child with out hitting them, I told them how.

DeeDee, I agree with you. I've raised 2 kids, 7 dogs, a couple of horses, and 5 cats. ALL TRAINABLE if you know what you are doing. Each one takes a different approach. My grandmother use to have a ranch. She would train the cats as well. Some easily would use the toilet, some refused to because they didn't want to be bothered by it.. so she would train them with different tricks.

One of her horses use to love to test people. I mean he would nip and bite.. not hard but enough to feel it. He would do the exact opposite you get her to do.... nudging him with a stick worked like a charm... simply because it made him think we were able to PUSH him as before we were physically too weak to have his respect. It didn't hurt him one bit but those that saw it happening.. swore we had to be.

But no matter how good you raised your kids.. you will always have "know it alls" swear only their method is not only superior but the only way.