A buddy of mine won't even bring his autistic boys to my house. He knows how they are and knows how to respect others.

and isnt it a shame aushepherd that your "friend" cant have their child come over and visit but feels they must hide them from you as they know you disapprove of them. You are not their friend. A real friend wouldnt make him feel so ashamed of his children.

Aushepherd said nothing about disapproving of his friends kids. He was simply commenting that his friend knows the limits at which his own children can behave. You, Genenut, should be ashamed of assuming that this person is feeling ashamed of his children.

No Lyrica You should be ashamed for supporting a jerk like him. If a person you call a friend doesnt feel comfortable to have thier children come over to your house with them EVER then you are not really their friend.

If I have a child that I know for a fact will cause trouble in another persons house, I won't bring my child. Simple as that. It's not that I'm ashamed, it's that I respect the other person and know my own child. My friends are welcome to come to my house where I can control any 'situations' better, and there isn't a damn thing that would make me ashamed of my child unless it's something I didn't address to begin with. That is my own failing, not my friends.

When I see/hear badly behaved children it simply highlights to me the probability that the parents are ineffective and have no control. I have a daughter and a son and neither misbehaves in public or at a friends house etc. When my son was just short of turning two we went to a steakhouse. He was asleep when we got there. Well, he woke up just as dinner started and began to fuss and act up. Well, it's a steakhouse and it was noisy but that that didn't stop me. I took him outside and we had a talk. I came back with a perfectly behaved toddler and my husband was just dumbfounded. Bad behaviour isn't accepted at home OR ANYWHERE else. And no, my kids aren't afraid of me and I don't beat them. But they know what I expect of them. And that's how I was raised too.

And I bet NEITHER of you have a disabled child. When my autistic child gets over stimmed its not a choice on thier part or a lack of parenting on my part.

Get over yourselves. You are judgemental and narrow minded.

Get over yourselves. You are judgemental and narrow minded.

Again Genenut with attacks. Children with Autism rarely feel good outside of their comfort zone. Parents with Autistic children work around this and do not take them where they know they will have a meltdown. Parents with Autistic children are looking out for the child not the public. However, Autistic children must go to school and learn the behaviors acceptable in a public setting. You seem to assume way too much on this count.

And sometimes autistic children have sensory overload due to things their parents couldn't predict and often due to actions of others. If you think sensory overload is a behavior that autistics can learn to not do etc you are very much mistaken. It would be like telling you to not react to pain. We parents tend to try to not take child into known situations where one would occur because thats not fair to the child, but sometimes we cant predict, know ahead of time or prevent the situation. Instead of telling us we're banned and blame it on bad parenting and tell us to get out, offer some help and understanding with compassion. And suggesting we should never take that child out in public like this owner did is not appropriate.

Again - walk a mile in the shoes of a parent of a child with autism or another disability. This owner cant and it would appear neither can you.

genenut, i agree with u these people doesnt know what are we going through at all.. and i wont be surprise anymore why a lot of kids in my job or in this beautiful country are shaking babies or abused, because nowadays people are intolerance they forgot they were kids once and this is a part of growing up...

i can't speak to what the needs of an autistic child, but bad behavior needs to be curbed.

i don't think anyone has forgotten what it's like to be a kid, i just think they had a difference experience & were taught that it wasn't proper to be loud in certain settings. it kind of sounds like gen & zhiel didn't quite have that experience.

don't they shake babies because they're ill-equipped to deal with the baby--lack of resources, parenting skills, patience, etc.?

i've seen parents with kids just totally flipping out trying to ignore little jimmy until it stops 20-30 minutes later--all at the expense of everyone else. that's foolishness. if you don't consider one kid spoiling everyone else's good time, then you're selfish.

genenut - children that are acting out due to over-stimulation (whether they have ADHD, autism or not) are children in distress. They have reached their coping limit and are in need of attention. The parents need to act responsible, put the child's needs ahead of their own, ask for the meal to go. Special needs children take time to return to their comfort zone. You are abusing that child by forcing them to stay in a stressful situation.

The point you are missing is that being at a restaurant is supposed to be comfortable for everyone.

You are abusing that child by forcing them to stay in a stressful situation.

DKMT well written point and goes for disable children as well as "normal" children. Any time a child has reach his or hers ability to cope it is time for the parent to act and remove them from the environment. A turn of focus usually alleviates the distress and is a much better move than believing others can put up with the ruckus due to the parents finding it inconvenient to take charge of the situation. I've worked with children having frequent meltdowns and they would come howling to me due to a teacher asking them to remove themselves from the classroom or playground. They may complain and grouse about the treatment of the teacher but they all know they are the ones needing to get control of themselves. I've found if I did not allow them to put the blame onto someone else they eventually began to settle down more quickly with each incident. Children want to have control of themselves so parents need to honor this and assist no matter where they are at the time of the meltdown.

And autistic in the middle of being over-stimmed trying to relocate them will cause more stress than trying to comfort them in place. When they are over stimmed they shut down.

I understand peoples anger with NT kids who are running wild but not all screaming children are running wild or the product of bad or absent parenting and this business owner thinks autistic children shouldnt be out in public.

Genemut, you are the one being judgmental and narrow-minded. I have seen you infer things in every one of your posts that were never said at all by the people you were responding to. You should stop and take a good look at the biased opinions you are espousing before reading things into what other people are saying.

Why is this such a big deal? How did it become about Autistic Children? No one said anything about disabled children on the sign. I also believe the owner stated no one was being asked to leave or not come in, just get control over the child and situation so it does not disrupt the rest of the paying patrons. I don’t feel that it unfair. I don't get a babysitter to go to a quite dinner to be disrupted by someone else’s children. I think everyone has forgotten common courtesy. When did being PC become tolerate everything?

momw2boys, I totally agree with you. I was raised to keep quiet in restaurants and any other public place EXCEPT for a playground. The sign does NOT say anything negative about anyone's particular child. It is FOR ALL CHILDREN...REGARDLESS of who they are or what they may or may not have. Disney world has a restaurant designed FOR
ADULTS ONLY. This is so adults can associate in a child free area after leaving them home with the babysitter. When mine get out of line, I instruct them to either behave or we will leave. Since they had proper raising, they do what they are asked. I don't need to have had an Autistic child to know what they are about. Several friends have them and THEY also will not bring them to certain restaurants, etc. because they KNOW the effect they will have on others around them. This is really GREATLY Curteous to everyone. She doesn't complain that someone may be offended and they should just deal with it like Genemut thinks they should. It is not anyone else's fault or responsibility for someone else's disabled children. But it is their RIGHT to not be bothered by them.

Great comments momw2boys and Janes had Enough. Every parent should know their children well enough to know what environment is suited for them. It's obvious you do and it would be a pleasure to dine with you. I believe it is common curtsey to know when to exit a public place with an unruly child. I mean I've had to do this and heard, "Not the car! Not the car" all the way out of wherever I was at the time. It was a bit embarrassing but I would not allow things to escalate before taking measure to be respectful to others. The only one of my three doing this was over the interruptions before turning 4 but I had to watch him closely as there were times he'd lose it and we'd have to go home.

Agreed! It's gotten to the point you cannot enjoy a day off in a bookstore, the public library, a cafe, an expensive restaurant... We no longer have the right just to sit someplace quietly--not even our homes because we all live around each other. Please, some sanity!

AMEN!!! It never fails....because I look young, restaurants always want to sit me next to children....I've asked to sit elsewhere as far away from screamers as possible.

I have 2 boys and we ranch, I can do dirt, etc. What I can't stand is food bits and body fluids touching. I actually smacked a toddler behind me once when he grabbed my hair and yanked, the parents didn't do a thing about their child but they did pull some of my hair out of his hand and left it at the table when they skipped out on the bill. I did pay for there tab because the owner is a friend of mine, but I can run herd on all of my kids and their cousins and friends and not worry about them behaving inappropriately anywhere.

Several years ago, I adopted a jungle attitude toward the situation.

I will tollerate ONE scream or "crawl over" or "hair pull" or "food incident"...ONE. To which, I will "body language" my disapproval (glare or tensely square off) in a socially acceptable manner.

After that... I'm the LION. And I will roar...LOUDLY. Not like a clown...a madman. Like the monsterous nightmare that every parent warns their children about.

I have scared the hell out of children and parents alike. Generally, after a few moments of stunned, ackward silence, I smile and calmly return to my meal...enjoying the new found tranquility (along with the other patrons).

It is unconventional. It is primal. I suppose it triggers the amygdalae to fire madly, activating the sympathatic system and overloading cerebral cortex...Within my sphere of influence, I end up surrounded by doe-eyed lizard brains.

It takes at least 10-15 minutes for the endorphins to flush and their synapses to reboot. Until then they simply can not make sense of what just happened.

Of the dozen or more times I've resorted to the technique, I've never been confronted or challenged (although I have received applause, handshakes, apologies, and thank you's).

I'd hope such an experience has been the basis for new beliefs, affecting new behaviors, resulting in different outcomes -- if not in the children...in parents. Or granting courage to others to stand up against the tyrrany of irresponsible, self-absorbed parenting.

The world is not a safe place... no matter how many labels and rubber bumpers and anti-bacterial gel you put on every possible hazard. Little monsters need to learn how to survive in the jungle.

I sir, wish to see this, I hope I meet you at a restaurant some day. Awesome.

Richard Wermske I wish you had been there the day the 3 moms and their 9 children where dining at the restaurant I was working in, the moms where drinking cocktails and ignoring the kids running, screaming, and walking up to other peoples tables and touching their food. I told the moms to keep their kids seated and quiet, and got the answer that this was their time to have fun. I told the moms they had to pay for 2 more dinners that I had to reorder because of the kids, they got pissed and I showed them the door. The restaurant lost a lot of money that night....... :-(

As a Mother of 4, we could eat out anywhere, anytime, they knew their limits and what was expected of them in public places. Gotta raise em right!!

that's the problem today, the parents think letting their kids do what ever they want will make them happy, it doesn't! Parents take control! Kids need to know whoes in charge.

I have 3 brothers and 3 sisters and my parents justed to get compliments on how well we behaved in public. We knew if we didn't we would be in trouble and we wouldn't get to go out to dinner again. These kids need consequences for their actions.

That's a great idea actually. I can put up with about anything if I get a free dinner out of it. lol

AMEN!!!

Telling the disabled they cant go out is beyond disgusting. The narrow minded like you should stay home instead.

Try joining the human race , broadenyour mind and learn to become compassionate.

Anyone who thinks the disabled should not be allowed to go out in public needs to move to afghanistan. People like you disgust me. you should not be allowed to go out in public.

....and again....Genenut, you don't really read what he's saying. He never said that the disabled should never go outside, you did. He's saying that as a parent you know your childs limitations and should be aware that the general public does not.

You want others to broaden their minds when you can't even seem to get the idea that, yes people don't want to hear other peoples children screaming, and No we don't have a mind reading device that allows us to automatically know if a child is disabled. All we see is a parent ignoring their screaming, unruley child.

NO LYRICA you fail to understand that disability INTOLLERANCE is rampant in this country. You obviously dont have a disabled child. Maybe if you did you would understand a bit better and actually read what was said. He did say disabled children shouldnt go to restaurants.

Where exactly? Because I've read and reread it several times and at NO place does he actually say "disabled children shouldn't go to restaurants." Are you sure you aren't just assuming that's what he means? Please do show me, it's entirely possible I have missed it. What I am reading, and understanding is exactly what I wrote before. At no point do I see intolerance for disabled children, what I DO see is intolerance for parents who ignore the misconduct of their child, disabled or not.

If a child is acting out, (yelling, screaming, throwing a tantrum...if I have to spell it out for you) then the parent should take the child outside until he/she calms down, reguardless if the child is disabled or not.

ok i have a disabled child...and my child has NEVER acted up in a restaurant...he knows whats expected of him..and again..ITS ALL IN THE WAY THERE RAISED AND DISIPLINED!!!! parents these days think that having a disabled child is an excuse for there behavior well guess what its not..its just ignorance on there part.

joesqueen, Score! You know how it works and we all love you for this!

@Genenut You clearly misinterpreted what I said based on your comments. What I was saying is that if you have a disabled child that you know will act out in public, it is the parents responsibility to make sure that the child isn't disturbing or causing problems for other people. We aren't the child's parents, and if we were we could have disciplined the child. But clearly from your comments you basically want everyone else to raise your child since you are incapable of putting in the effort. I honestly feel sorry for the spawns you brought into this world based on your attitude.

Also you clearly are putting words into my mouth, so let me spit them out and reiterate what i said...if a child is misbehaving in a public or private place, that child should be removed until they have calmed down, as to not disturb anyone else. No where did I say they should be banned from the place.

And finally, I said that it is the parents responsibility to make sure that if a child is misbehaving that they take care of him, as to not disturb others. Ignoring or bribing the child to get them to calm down only creates a new problem that unfortunately takes longer to break.

@Lyrica and @joesqueen, thank you for actually interpreting what I said correctly, it makes me happy that true parenting really does go a long way.

And just so you know, I was extremely bad when I was a child..and after acting out I was removed from where ever I was, smacked on the butt, and calmed down until I was able to come back in. Guess what, I love my parents for that, raising me right, respectful and successful in my life.

My God, Genemut doesn't even listen to herself talk....I just wish I could run into her with her snot-rosed ankle-biter in a restaurant sometime...her opinions tell me she is the epitome of the most inconsiderate people I know...and I would love to tell her face to face.

I'm with you, Robin!

I do hope I am not stepping on any one else's toes, but please retract said toes while I elephant trample about here for a brief bit.

From what I have experienced in my 25+ years of online interactions, it is often stated by those who know the obvious signs, that:

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

Trolls are - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Genenut may not be a troll per se, but their comments seem to lend themselves towards trollishness.

The best thing is to ignore a trolls' postings - disputing with a troll is 'FEEDING' it - and usually they just go away as no one else is playing their game.

After all a TROLL will drag you down to their level and PUMMEL you with superior skills at being a TROLL.

Oh genenut isn't trolling, if anything she is a foul smelling place that I can't write here, tho it begins with 'C'.
See that is trolling. Feed me!

As a mother of 5, yes five children, I have taken my children to restaurants since they were born. I have NEVER allowed any of them to be a disruption to others. I have even been in a nice place with all my kids while others where being little monster and stated in a very loud voice, "We don't act like that in public". You should see the looks I get from the parents who let their children act up. I have even gone to a theater (not a movie but with real actors) and had children of pre-teen age throw food and gotten into my hair. I made a comment that it was pitiful that parents couldn't control their kids - the parents moved the child. If you have a child with a disability then you generally know what that child can and can't handle, therefore DON'T put that child in a situation where you KNOW that it is going to cause a problem. And I don't care if your child has a disability or just spoiled - IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY AS A PARENT TO CONTROL YOUR CHILD WHEN IN PUBLIC. I have worked in retail, fast food, and offices where I have seen kids running wild and when asked to control the kids the parents gave an attitude. I went to school with disabled kids, both mental and physical, and understand sometimes things are just too much for them, but to force others to put up with your child screaming and throwing a fit because you are to lazy to take care of them is just wrong. I have had restaurant staff and other patrons come up and tell me thank you because my kids sat in their seats and didn't throw food or scream or anything. It can be done.

ERHMSH you are a beautiful example of a parent. It would be so much better for childen to learn as you teach. We'd have so little to grip about!

Thank you ERHMSH, you sound like my parents and I respect you fully for it. If I ever meet you I will shake your hand and thank you for being the loving parent that you are!

Geneut - you seem to confuse disabled with misbehaving children. I think you are selling disabled children short to infer that they are incapable of proper behavior. If they become unruly, they can be taken out until they can get control of themselves. I had a good friend with an autistic child. It was important to him to teach him proper manners as it would be with any child.

Geneut - you are definitely the kind of person who gives Americans a bad name.

Geneut - you sound like you live under a rock or can't read. Where and why did this start with disable children? So many seem to care and understand disabilities but it is still the adults responsiblity to have a common courtesy to others. Just like you expect them to be considerate of disabilities. At my son's school where they have a program for autistic children, behavior is something they work on. During an assembly if one gets over stimulated they are removed to calm down then brought back in, so they to not disturb or distract anyone. Why is doing the same in a restaurant different or wrong? Disabilities or not it is the responsibility of the parent to teach and educate our children, not make excuses for them.

yeah Genenut needs to stop talking. You sound like the type of person that would meet someone and say "Oh, and this is my child, he's autistic." "Oh don't worry, he's autistic." "Don't do that, he's autistic" "Can we go in sooner, he's autisitc." Like you parade it around and make it a bigger deal than it really is.

This may be after your time but in an episode of Saved by the Bell, Zach dated a girl in a wheelchair and really embarrassed her because he kept trying to do things thinking he was helping. Like telling a man in front of them at the movies "Can you slouch down, my date is in a wheelchair."

You're trying to play some poor victim that everyone is picking on and we aren't. The article never did either. My old boss knew his son wasn't ready to go to a hockey game at the age of 2 because he would get antsy and uninterested if he had to sit for too long because it does it at home. So he wouldn't take him until he turned 4.

Kate loved your points until you used a Saved by the Bell reference. You lost all credibility.

What the hell is wrong with Saved by the Bell? I was like, 8 when I watched it. That episode popped into my head with this issue.

Ok, ok, how about a reference to a Seinfeld episode that was on I think Wednesday - Elaine was dating a Communist and although I was doing something else while watching I thought I heard her introduce her boyfriend as "so and so, he's a communist" is that better?

"Are we really that sick and scared?"

Yes...

The people of the USA have become pathetic godless worms

sickening and scary

because most "fast food" establishments are employed the same people you "admonished"; dumb teens with no sense (common or otherwise) no decency, and no respect for others and or property.

This country and the world as a whole has become a society of clueless morons with no sense, no ability to think for themselves or beyond their own narcissistic wants. We are a society that has become locked in our own selfishness and todays parents for the most part were never taught any sense so they have none to pass on..

And chances are that if those restaurant workers confronted their customers for bad behavior, they would be discipined or fired. Often, the restaurant workers are in a no-win situation.

I agree in most public places, but even the infant should be taken outside of a movie theater until the parent can get the baby calmed down.

Thank you Chris-2336119, I agree. A movie theater is definitely a place for silence from everyone.

No, I don't agree that people wouldn't object to an infant crying for a few minutes. I object!! I've raised three children. On the rare occasions that I brought them out in public when they were infants, I tended to them if they cried. I spent plenty of time nursing in the car, or in the ladies room so as not to disturb others. Why should anyone else have to suffer because I chose to be a mother? Quick answer: they shouldn't.

Going out to dinner is not a right. I think restaurant owners should be able to serve and deny whoever they want, whenever they want (yes, the disabled, too). I can't tell you the last time my husband and I went out for a nice, romantic dinner and actually were able to enjoy a nice, romantic dinner. There is ALWAYS a screaming child within 10 feet of us. I love paying $60 for a meal and then end up with a splitting headache and a desire to stop the entire world from procreating!

When it comes to the disabled, restaurants must provide handicapped access. That is federal law. Not so very many years ago, Clint Eastwood's restaurant was sued because he had only 1 handicapped access restroom in the back. I believe the person who sued lost because the law does not say the access has to be in the front of the restaurant, and the restroom at Mr. Eastwood's restaurant was in the back.

Screaming children are quite a different matter. My husband and I have had the same experience as you; pay good money for a meal and then be forced to listen to a child who is probably being kept up by parents who want to have a late meal. Some kids just cannot sleep anywhere but their own beds.

Yes EEK, the law does say that the business must PROVIDE handicap access...but nowhere does it say they MUST do business with them.

And, just as an afterthought, whatever happened to "Children should be seen and not heard"?

@ EEK - I'm surpised that you are the first (I think) person to comment on the fact that sometimes children ARE at a restaurant at 10pm. I have seen them in Walmart too. And I mean, like 2yr or 5 yr olds. It's horrible! They should be in bed!

I raised three children and know schedules are paramount. Breaking routine can be a hardship on a child and should only be exercised for special reasons. If we went out to dinner it was a 5:00 pm affair where most weren't remotely ready to dine. Meals were very joyous for us so going to a restaurant was a treat and a fun affair and everyone stayed on their best behavior. It was not a difficult task, as the children knew how to put their public manners on and had no problem staying in compliance. I have very little patience with parents who are casual with their children's upbringing and don't think a thing about torturing others with their negligence.

I have a baby, and we don't take him out to eat because I know he will cry or shriek. He's not being bad, but he will still disturb others.

but see abby, that is the difference - YOU would try to do something right away. YOU would not ignore the child and let the screaming or crying continue. i do not believe you are the type person this sign would be directed at in all honesty. it is the children who are allowed to CONTINUE the unruly, obnoxious, loud behavior that people are having problems with - or maybe rather the parent(s) of that child. please don't feel offended or bad - it sounds like you are a good mom.

Abby, most people have no problem with babies. It is the hair-raising shrieking of children who are trying to get their parent's attention that drives adults up the wall.

There are places for children and there are some places that are not so good for children. As parents and grandparents, we need to know the difference and take a child's age and behavior into account when we take them somewhere.

I've seen some very good children, babies included, and I've been faced with children and babies that are not so pleasant to be around. What frosts me is when a parent or grandparent just ignores the bad behavior and hopes that it will go away and subjects everyone around them to it.

To parents that take an active part in teaching their children the difference between acceptable behavior and not so acceptable behavior, you have my thanks and heartfelt congratulations.

However, it only takes a few not so good parents and grandparents to cause this type of problem. It's truly time that the not so good parents understand that we do not want to listen to your little Johnnie or Joan be a brat so that you can go out and have a meal. If it means that much to you either get a babysitter, or teach your children good manners so that they can be in public and not be a distrubance. You might find that you have a better behaved child at home as well!

I don't think it's so much, the parent wants to finish dinner instead of diciplining the children. Those type of parents avoid diciplining their children in any given situation when they really should be.

When the kids are misbehaving, screaming, etc. and the parents sit there and plead with the child to behave to no avail, that is worse than letting the kid run around and scream. I always get the urge to slap the parent, not the kid. Grow up people !! The kids should not have the upper hand on you.

Perhaps they're just afraid if they do discipline the kid someone will call the cops on them for "abuse"? We can't have it both ways - we either mind our own business and let parents feel safe disciplining their kids or we quit whining about them Not doing it.

I agree Justme...I was disciplined as a child, and it has made me a much more considerate adult than I may have been...when I see someone smack their kid on the butt for misbehaving, I turn the other way, and if someone asked me, I would say I saw nothing. I have seen so many brats that get away with everything due to a lack of discipline that I would love to see the return of the willow tree in every yard, a wooden spoon in every kitchen, a belt on every father and the Board of Education in every principal's office.

Robin, My parents spanked me twice when I was really little - and that's all it took! Thereafter just the thought was enough lol. Mine is still too young for a swat but lucky for me she's very sensitive so all it takes with her is a stern voice. I wouldn't mind seeing the return of that stuff either - imo we made a royal mess with the "be a friend to your child" crap.

As much as everyone is raising hell about parents not disciplining their kids, I would bet that the majority on here would be the one busting out their cell phone at the sight of a parent doing so in public.

Some kids learn better by spanking. I know I sure did. You could put me in the corner all you wanted, I had such an imagination it was fun. But I didn't forget lessons that ended with a quick spank. There is a HUGE difference between correcting and beating a child and I agree that some people are to much into others business. The parent should know how the kid learns best, not some stranger.

Lyrica, Exactly on all of it. I agree completely. The problem is if you discipline your kid in public, people are gonna get crappy with you. If you don't, they're gonna get crappy with you. And then there are those really miserable people who go balistic at the sight of a child smiling and you have to deal with them too. So any way it goes - you have to deal with a-holes that can't simply mind their own and accept their fate to be born on a planet with other human beings. The longer I'm a mom, the more happy I am I moved out into the country. They still support discipline, still like kids, and still have courtesy and respect toward others!

I live out in the country as well. Best decision I ever made. I look forward to starting a family.

Best decision I ever made.

Me too! :0) No way I'd want to raise my kid in the city I grew up in. Though I'm thinking it's not quite as bad after reading all of the stories on here about kids running in restaurants, climbing tables and windowsills, knocking things over, screaming bloody murder, and sticking their hands in other people's food. Whereever they live I'm glad I'm not there!! Lol!

Wrong attitude. Don't be just a 'Leader' You have to be a Father or a Mother. This is very distinct. A Leader has no personal deep connection to you. A Father can simply show disappointment and you'll stop your behavior if your a good kid. Why? Because you care for his approval same with the Mother.

Kids just need a firm hand at first and then to be taught *Or indoctrinated depending on point of view* to actually understand to respect their father and mothers approval. and to be polite. When i was little i was always soft spoken and polite to everyone i met.

It never got me into trouble and i never shouted at a diner. The only time i ever raised a fuss was when me and my father argued. and when i say Argue what i refer to is an Actually decent Debate me and my father or mother when we had disagreements would debate or argue over it *if it was something negotiable* and they would prove to me my logic was false. If they proved me wrong i admitted they were right and acted right. if i proved myself right then they admitted i was right. Such is a good way to encourage children if they think they can get away with something if they can prove it to be right then they'll spend alot of time thinking on how to talk how to speak how to act and how to argue properly. This leads to an increase in social skills.

Also as it tends to be this kind of discussion is good for brain development in younger children. It encourages parts of the brain as well as encouraging them to continue speaking right after they can.

You both are right, Seth I think you just got caught up in the word leader. Yes, kids need parents to parent more then to be friend.

I've worked in retail and have seen kids acting up at 11pm at night and the parents wonder why their kid is acting up.

I've seen kids running around the store making messes that parents just ignore, probably thinking, at least I don't have to clean it up.

There is a huge problem with parents thinking they have a 'right' to do things, and yes to a certain extent they do. They do not however, have the right to allow their child to run amuck in public places, and allow the kids to do whatever they want. They do not have the right to assume that everyone has to deal with unruly children.

I don't want to hear a kid screaming while I'm trying to enjoy my food, I paid just as much as they did. I'm just waiting for someone to sue saying that it infringes on their right as a parent to go out. Does that mean that I get to sue the parent for aggrivation of hearing their kids screaming?